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[Wizard of Corsica]

Kaliyev would be lighting things up in LA if he had Raymond's deployment.
That's why I talk about TOI and opportunity.

Yes I am misrepresenting your point somewhat, and I'd certainly allow there's players in the class capable of matching what Raymond done, given the same chances.

I'm still a tiny bit nervous this might be near his ceiling, looking at his frame.

Still though, both Seider and Raymond have made a meal of being Red Wings, just taken the opportunity and destroyed it so far. The eye test really does work as well as anything in this case.

Seider would be forcing his way into prime situations on most teams.

[hiramnicak]

Mercer and Byram are the only guys in the running with Seider and Raymond for me at the moment.

[Pop Zeus]

Kaliyev would be lighting things up in LA if he had Raymond's deployment.
That's why I talk about TOI and opportunity.

Yes I am misrepresenting your point somewhat, and I'd certainly allow there's players in the class capable of matching what Raymond done, given the same chances.

I'm still a tiny bit nervous this might be near his ceiling, looking at his frame.

Still though, both Seider and Raymond have made a meal of being Red Wings, just taken the opportunity and destroyed it so far. The eye test really does work as well as anything in this case.

Seider would be forcing his way into prime situations on most teams.

I don't think he's been too dynamic, honestly.
But he's involved. He keeps the plays going. He's got skill.

Comparing Zadina and Raymond - Raymond scores where Zadina fires shots into the jersey crest. Raymond completes passes where Zadina puts passes behind a guy.

He's going to get way better as he gets stronger. Not sure if the production will be better. Kind of feels like he's been overly fortunate in the production department.

[Barbrady]

Hockey stats are about opportunity.
Put Raymond/Seider on the first unit PP, and they're bound to produce.
Both have been good. But are they anywhere near as impactful as their stats suggest? I don't think they're anywhere near that.

Raymond's 5 on 5 p/60 is near the top among rookies. But he's behind Mercer, Leason, Rondbjrg, OConnor, Dahlen.
2.37 is a very good p/60.
And he's contributing to it. But I don't think he's the driver.
Veleno's, by the way, is 2.23.

Seider's p/60 is .68.
That's ninth among rookie D with 340 minutes or more playing time.

Seider has 48 minutes of PP time. Only Jamie Drysdale (41 minutes) is close.
Kyle Clauge (3 assists in 30 minute) is the only defenseman matching Seider's scoring rates on the PP.

In terms of forwards, it's even more stark.
Raymond has 48 1/2 minutes of PP time. Nobody else has more than 34.
Raymond ranks 7th in PP scoring/60 915 minutes or more.)


In terms of Detroit defensemen, here are our 5 on 5 point/60s

Hronek .98
Lindstrom .9
Stecher ,78
Seider .68
Leddy .62
Dekeyser .52
Staal .29

n terms of Detroit forwards:
Bertuzzi 3.36
Larkin 2.55
Raymond 2.37 - Great number - but lowest on his line.
Veleno 2.23
Namestnikov 2.21 - stunning.
Suter 1.77
Stephens 1.61
Fabbri 1.48
Rasmussen 1.28 - Decent for Moose.
Gagner 1.18
Rowney 0.77
Zadina 0.61 - WTF?
Smith 0

This is where stats like this, less than a quarter into a year can be deceiving and are ultimately pretty useless.
Stecher, Lindstrom would not be producing on the PP like Seider has been. Seider has shown this early that is superb at both gaining entry into the zone and holding the line on the PP and is already looks like he may be the best on the team at it among the D.

Raymond has played in every game. Bert has missed three and Larkin 4.
So of course he's going to have more minutes at even strength and the most on the PP.
And of course his averages per 60 is going to drop significantly when he's in every game and playing while his usual linemates, the 2 best offensive players on the team, each miss roughly a quarter of this young season, relative to the 2 best offensive players on the team.
You weren't seeing Zadina and company producing like this on the PP the last 2 seasons.

It's a testament to how well they're playing that they're getting these opportunities on the PP... and making the most of it to boot.
And points on the PP don't count any less than ES points, so who cares?

In other words - stats don't work for my narrative - so I reject them.

Ironic.
You critique Raymond for his PP stats and PP time elevating his production... while simultaneously gushing over Kaliyev while the facts are:


ES G/60
Kaliyev - .43
Raymond - .87

ES P/60 -
Kaliyev - .86
Raymond - 2.33

Or how about ignoring the fact that 60% of Kaliyev's points have come on the PP while only 36% of Raymond's points have come on the PP?

So who's really using stats to critique some guys, but ignoring it when it doesn't work for the narrative of the guy he's gushing over?

[hiramnicak]

as far as ceilings go, raymond's sitting right around a point-per-game right now. if that's his ceiling, it's a frigging awesome ceiling. i could see him hitting above the mark a couple times if the stars line up or whatever. i said last year that he reminds me of daniel alfredsson, and i'm going to stand by that. similar size player. similar style game.

[Machine]

Hockey stats are about opportunity.
Put Raymond/Seider on the first unit PP, and they're bound to produce.
Both have been good. But are they anywhere near as impactful as their stats suggest? I don't think they're anywhere near that.

Raymond's 5 on 5 p/60 is near the top among rookies. But he's behind Mercer, Leason, Rondbjrg, OConnor, Dahlen.
2.37 is a very good p/60.
And he's contributing to it. But I don't think he's the driver.
Veleno's, by the way, is 2.23.

Seider's p/60 is .68.
That's ninth among rookie D with 340 minutes or more playing time.

Seider has 48 minutes of PP time. Only Jamie Drysdale (41 minutes) is close.
Kyle Clauge (3 assists in 30 minute) is the only defenseman matching Seider's scoring rates on the PP.

In terms of forwards, it's even more stark.
Raymond has 48 1/2 minutes of PP time. Nobody else has more than 34.
Raymond ranks 7th in PP scoring/60 915 minutes or more.)


In terms of Detroit defensemen, here are our 5 on 5 point/60s

Hronek .98
Lindstrom .9
Stecher ,78
Seider .68
Leddy .62
Dekeyser .52
Staal .29

In terms of Detroit forwards:
Bertuzzi 3.36
Larkin 2.55
Raymond 2.37 - Great number - but lowest on his line.
Veleno 2.23
Namestnikov 2.21 - stunning.
Suter 1.77
Stephens 1.61
Fabbri 1.48
Rasmussen 1.28 - Decent for Moose.
Gagner 1.18
Rowney 0.77
Zadina 0.61 - WTF?
Smith 0


I

Why would you put up a bunch of stats in 1 post, then write a second post saying stats are bullshit? Your guy Zegras, and lots of other guys have gotten first rate opportunites, what have they done with them?

Seider and Raymond are the best rookies in the league, I'd bet on that without having seen them all. If there's clearly better rookies out there, I'd have to think they're all stars.

Kaliyev would be lighting things up in LA if he had Raymond's deployment.
That's why I talk about TOI and opportunity.

Too much LA love from you

[Machine]

Mercer and Byram are the only guys in the running with Seider and Raymond for me at the moment.

The little that I have seen, I agree

[Bomber]

P/60 is a garbage non linear stat. Too many variables change when you go from a 4th or 3rd line to a 1st or 2nd line.

Raymond and Sieder are being thrown to the wolves and are succeeding. They play top lines with no where to hide. Saying that it's as simple as giving any player the time and they will score is just a strange point of view.

[Pop Zeus]

P/60 is a garbage non linear stat. Too many variables change when you go from a 4th or 3rd line to a 1st or 2nd line.

Raymond and Sieder are being thrown to the wolves and are succeeding. They play top lines with no where to hide. Saying that it's as simple as giving any player the time and they will score is just a strange point of view.

Thrown to the Wolves?
Raymond is literally getting the opportunity every kid wants - playing top line minutes with the two best players on the team.

They don't have to hide. Raymond can miss the net from the slot and still get points when Larkin scores on the rebound.

[_sg_]

Kaliyev would be lighting things up in LA if he had Raymond's deployment.
That's why I talk about TOI and opportunity.

Isn't this what the hockeyviz isolates are for? Is it finally time for me to subscribe?