4th Top-4 DMan this yr..

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Pop Zeus
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Re: 4th Top-4 DMan this yr..

Post by Pop Zeus »

RedWhite&Yzerman wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:54 pm
Pop Zeus wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:42 pm
RedWhite&Yzerman wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:39 pm The core of this team...to me...is this:

DeBrincat --- Larkin --- Raymond
??? --- Danielson --- ???
Mazur --- Kasper --- MBN

??? --- Seider
Edvinsson --- ASP

Cossa/Augustine

*****

In 3yrs ('26-27)...
-Ras will be in the 2nd to last yr of his deal (should be easy to move, if you want.. should actually return decent asset/s)
-Copp will be in the last yr of his deal (shouldn't be harder to move than Fabbri, if you want).
-Compher will be in the 2nd to last yr of his deal (maybe you'd want to get rid of him just bc he's too pricey for a 4th liner; he'd be the hardest of the 3 to move...and I'm not sure we'd even want to move him...and I don't think it'd be terribly difficult to, if we did want to).

...

*****

-100% confident Seider can anchor the 1st pair.
-95% confident Edvinsson can anchor the 2nd.
-90% confident ASP will be a solid all-around 2nd pair D (and not just a PP specialist).
~~~Just need to find one top-4 LHD somewhere.

-85% confident Cossa or Augustine will be a solid NHL starter (75% confident they will be a solid NHL tandem)
~~~No worries there at the moment.

-95% confident Kasper, MBN and Mazur will all be --at least-- solid 3rd line NHL'ers.
-DeBrincat-Larkin-Raymond is already a solid 2nd NHL line.
-90% confident Danielson can be a great two-way, pass-first 2nd line center in between two good wingers.
~~~Just need to find two top-6 wingers.

NEEDS:
Top-4 LHD
Top-6 Wing
Top-6 Wing

Tons of cap space to sign a top-4 D and a top-6 forward.

Maybe we can draft another top-6 forward who'd be ready after a post-draft season (like Raymond) or two.

Not a ton to really stress about, guys. The base is already in place.
If that's our top line, were going to be stuck in the 12-20 range. You need these guys.
If Larkin is the ceiling, forget about it.

I think your lineup, outside of Mazur, is probably accurate. Maybe flip Danielson and Kasper.
I just don't know how much better these guys will be than the Comphers, Copps and Chiarots of the world.

About 25 of the 32 teams can ice 3 quality lines, 2 solid defensive pairings and a decent goalie.
The teams that win are the teams with Barkovs and McDavids.
Just 3 holes to fill in the next 2 off-seasons... very do-able.
Fill them with Drai, sure


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Re: 4th Top-4 DMan this yr..

Post by Pop Zeus »

RedWhite&Yzerman wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:58 pm
Pop Zeus wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:42 pm
RedWhite&Yzerman wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:39 pm The core of this team...to me...is this:

DeBrincat --- Larkin --- Raymond
??? --- Danielson --- ???
Mazur --- Kasper --- MBN

??? --- Seider
Edvinsson --- ASP

Cossa/Augustine

*****

In 3yrs ('26-27)...
-Ras will be in the 2nd to last yr of his deal (should be easy to move, if you want.. should actually return decent asset/s)
-Copp will be in the last yr of his deal (shouldn't be harder to move than Fabbri, if you want).
-Compher will be in the 2nd to last yr of his deal (maybe you'd want to get rid of him just bc he's too pricey for a 4th liner; he'd be the hardest of the 3 to move...and I'm not sure we'd even want to move him...and I don't think it'd be terribly difficult to, if we did want to).

...

*****

-100% confident Seider can anchor the 1st pair.
-95% confident Edvinsson can anchor the 2nd.
-90% confident ASP will be a solid all-around 2nd pair D (and not just a PP specialist).
~~~Just need to find one top-4 LHD somewhere.

-85% confident Cossa or Augustine will be a solid NHL starter (75% confident they will be a solid NHL tandem)
~~~No worries there at the moment.

-95% confident Kasper, MBN and Mazur will all be --at least-- solid 3rd line NHL'ers.
-DeBrincat-Larkin-Raymond is already a solid 2nd NHL line.
-90% confident Danielson can be a great two-way, pass-first 2nd line center in between two good wingers.
~~~Just need to find two top-6 wingers.

NEEDS:
Top-4 LHD
Top-6 Wing
Top-6 Wing

Tons of cap space to sign a top-4 D and a top-6 forward.

Maybe we can draft another top-6 forward who'd be ready after a post-draft season (like Raymond) or two.

Not a ton to really stress about, guys. The base is already in place.
If that's our top line, were going to be stuck in the 12-20 range. You need these guys.
If Larkin is the ceiling, forget about it.

I think your lineup, outside of Mazur, is probably accurate. Maybe flip Danielson and Kasper.
I just don't know how much better these guys will be than the Comphers, Copps and Chiarots of the world.

About 25 of the 32 teams can ice 3 quality lines, 2 solid defensive pairings and a decent goalie.
The teams that win are the teams with Barkovs and McDavids.
Raymond actually has more pts in his first 3 seasons than Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Shannahan.....but hey.....I'm just giving you objective facts. It takes real talent to subjectively paint them pessimistically.
Datsyuk started on L4, playing behind, what? 6 Hall of Fame forwards?
Nobody is being pessimistic. I'm just unwilling to say he's tracking for an HoF career.
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hiramnicak
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Re: 4th Top-4 DMan this yr..

Post by hiramnicak »

Pop Zits wrote:That's never what I suggested.
I suggested sucking more, for a shorter period of time.
What you seem to be advocating and what Yzerman is going towards is being mediocre for 10 more years.
suck more than last in the league? i'm not quite clear on how you suck more shorter (*freudian slip?), but i'm spelling out what i think yzerman's process looks like. plan a was to draft first overall. that failed. plan b is to bank on the kids we have and fill in the holes through trades and free agency. personally, i would have let the team bottom out a season longer, but at some point, you have to start improving, so i get it. with the emergence of raymond and seider, yzerman decided to start adding stopgaps in the climb out of the well. i'm not gonna get my panties twisted into a knot because we drafted danielson instead of wright or what have you. it is what it is, so i'd rather have fun and let it play out.

*my wife confirmed for me. you can suck more longer or suck less shorter, but you can't more shorter.
trust the yzerplan trust the yzerplan
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Re: 4th Top-4 DMan this yr..

Post by RedWhite&Yzerman »

Pop Zeus wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 3:14 pm
RedWhite&Yzerman wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:58 pm
Pop Zeus wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:42 pm

If that's our top line, were going to be stuck in the 12-20 range. You need these guys.
If Larkin is the ceiling, forget about it.

I think your lineup, outside of Mazur, is probably accurate. Maybe flip Danielson and Kasper.
I just don't know how much better these guys will be than the Comphers, Copps and Chiarots of the world.

About 25 of the 32 teams can ice 3 quality lines, 2 solid defensive pairings and a decent goalie.
The teams that win are the teams with Barkovs and McDavids.
Raymond actually has more pts in his first 3 seasons than Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Shannahan.....but hey.....I'm just giving you objective facts. It takes real talent to subjectively paint them pessimistically.
Datsyuk started on L4, playing behind, what? 6 Hall of Fame forwards?
Nobody is being pessimistic. I'm just unwilling to say he's tracking for an HoF career.
No. He centered a still excellent HoF Brett Hull and Boyd Devereaux on the 2nd/3rd line his rookie season (sometimes getting more/less ice time than Robitaille-Larionov-Holmstrom)...and then the 2nd line the next two seasons between Brett Hull and Hank Zetterberg (on one of the best lines in hockey period)...and occasionally between Hank Zetterberg and Tomas Holmstrom (on what would become one of the best lines in team history).

But you already knew all that bc you actually watched the team then and aren't just talking with authority about something you know nothing about, right? Of course.
Last edited by RedWhite&Yzerman on Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Pop Zeus
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Re: 4th Top-4 DMan this yr..

Post by Pop Zeus »

hiramnicak wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 3:30 pm
Pop Zits wrote:That's never what I suggested.
I suggested sucking more, for a shorter period of time.
What you seem to be advocating and what Yzerman is going towards is being mediocre for 10 more years.
suck more than last in the league? i'm not quite clear on how you suck more shorter (*freudian slip?), but i'm spelling out what i think yzerman's process looks like. plan a was to draft first overall. that failed. plan b is to bank on the kids we have and fill in the holes through trades and free agency. personally, i would have let the team bottom out a season longer, but at some point, you have to start improving, so i get it. with the emergence of raymond and seider, yzerman decided to start adding stopgaps in the climb out of the well. i'm not gonna get my panties twisted into a knot because we drafted danielson instead of wright or what have you. it is what it is, so i'd rather have fun and let it play out.

*my wife confirmed for me. you can suck more longer or suck less shorter, but you can't more shorter.
Yzerman takes over
year - actual vs alternate
19-20 - *39pts, 6th overall Raymond SAME (would have taken Sanderson), but lets stay Raymond.
20-21 - *48 pts, 8th overall Edvinsson vs 40 points and Beniers or Hughes
21-22 - 74 points, 8th overall Kasper vs 58 points and Cooley
22-23 - 80 points, 9th overall Danielson vs 60 points and Fantili or Michkov or Smith
23-24 - 91 points, 15th overall Nygard vs 70 points and Demidov/Catton/Iginla
* covid shortened
That's assuming we stay unlucky in the lottery, too.

So Luke Hughes is done is rookie season.
Logan Cooley just finished his rookie rookie season.
Michkov is about to have his rookie season.
And Demidov is a couple seasons away.

Yzerman starts to load up with UFAs

UFA Bertuzzi Larkin Raymond - Veteran winger who plays kind of heavy
UFA Debrusk Cooley Michkov - Veteran winger who plays kind of heavy.
Ras Copp Fischer - Identity line
Whoever Veleno Whoever

Chiarot-Seider
Hughes - UFA Montour (Pesce as plan B)
Maatta- Johansson

Goalie Carousel with Cossa and Augustine coming.
With
And we'd still have Demidov, Iginla or Catton coming.

Maybe that team makes the playoffs next year.
Who cares? THese guys would have a shot to be be the future core we need.

We've got to face facts.
In 2022-23... we got nothing done. We sucked. We got some ice time for rookies Berggren and Soderbom and some garbage minutes in the final games for Edvinsson.
In 2023-24, we got nothing done. THere was no rookie time for anyone until Edvinsson at the end. And we failed to make the playoffs.

Why not lose with Berggren, Soderblom, Johansson and and Edvinsson(or Hughes and Cooley) instead of Perron, Sprong, Holl, Gost, Petry etc.

We buried Berggren and Soderblom and Johansson and Edvinsson for Perron and Sprong and Petry and Holl and Gost?

So we got an extra 10-20 points in the standings.
It cost us a chance to draft players with star potential. it cost us better odds in the lottery.

You want to win? Take your medicine.
Florida did a lot of losing. They've still got Barkov.
Huberdeau got them Tkachuk. They still have Ekblad.

Edmonton lost and lost before they got it right with
Nuge, Nurse, Drai, McJesus, Bouchard, Broberg

There just aren't many teams that show us a better way to do it.
Even Yzerman's LIghtning started with Stamkos and Hedman before he got there.
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Re: 4th Top-4 DMan this yr..

Post by Pop Zeus »

hiramnicak wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 3:30 pm
Pop Zits wrote:That's never what I suggested.
I suggested sucking more, for a shorter period of time.
What you seem to be advocating and what Yzerman is going towards is being mediocre for 10 more years.
suck more than last in the league? i'm not quite clear on how you suck more shorter (*freudian slip?), but i'm spelling out what i think yzerman's process looks like. plan a was to draft first overall. that failed. plan b is to bank on the kids we have and fill in the holes through trades and free agency. personally, i would have let the team bottom out a season longer, but at some point, you have to start improving, so i get it. with the emergence of raymond and seider, yzerman decided to start adding stopgaps in the climb out of the well. i'm not gonna get my panties twisted into a knot because we drafted danielson instead of wright or what have you. it is what it is, so i'd rather have fun and let it play out.

*my wife confirmed for me. you can suck more longer or suck less shorter, but you can't more shorter.
Datsyuk's first line, if I remember, was the Dandenault Datsyuk Devereaux line - the 3D line.
He played 13 minutes a night.
I remember debating Red Wings fans on the usenet who argued that Jason Williams would be the better player.
RedWhite&Yzerman
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Re: 4th Top-4 DMan this yr..

Post by RedWhite&Yzerman »

Pop Zeus wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 3:09 pm
RedWhite&Yzerman wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:54 pm
Pop Zeus wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:42 pm

If that's our top line, were going to be stuck in the 12-20 range. You need these guys.
If Larkin is the ceiling, forget about it.

I think your lineup, outside of Mazur, is probably accurate. Maybe flip Danielson and Kasper.
I just don't know how much better these guys will be than the Comphers, Copps and Chiarots of the world.

About 25 of the 32 teams can ice 3 quality lines, 2 solid defensive pairings and a decent goalie.
The teams that win are the teams with Barkovs and McDavids.
Just 3 holes to fill in the next 2 off-seasons... very do-able.
Fill them with Drai, sure
That would be one option. Drafting a nice wing in the middle of the 2025 draft (maybe trading up to get him) and signing hometown Kyle Connor could also give you a nice forward group...without requiring such a long-shot signing...depending on how nice the forward is.

DeBrincat --- Larkin --- Raymond
Connor --- Danielson --- '25 1st
Mazur --- Kasper --- MBN
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Re: 4th Top-4 DMan this yr..

Post by RedWhite&Yzerman »

Pop Zeus wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 9:57 pm
hiramnicak wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2024 3:30 pm
Pop Zits wrote:That's never what I suggested.
I suggested sucking more, for a shorter period of time.
What you seem to be advocating and what Yzerman is going towards is being mediocre for 10 more years.
suck more than last in the league? i'm not quite clear on how you suck more shorter (*freudian slip?), but i'm spelling out what i think yzerman's process looks like. plan a was to draft first overall. that failed. plan b is to bank on the kids we have and fill in the holes through trades and free agency. personally, i would have let the team bottom out a season longer, but at some point, you have to start improving, so i get it. with the emergence of raymond and seider, yzerman decided to start adding stopgaps in the climb out of the well. i'm not gonna get my panties twisted into a knot because we drafted danielson instead of wright or what have you. it is what it is, so i'd rather have fun and let it play out.

*my wife confirmed for me. you can suck more longer or suck less shorter, but you can't more shorter.
Datsyuk's first line, if I remember, was the Dandenault Datsyuk Devereaux line - the 3D line.
He played 13 minutes a night.
I remember debating Red Wings fans on the usenet who argued that Jason Williams would be the better player.
Matthew Dandenault was a 3rd pair defenseman on that team who never played a game at forward in his entire career.

Please. Just stop. You have already informed us that you A) speak with authority on things you know nothing about for some reason; and B) continue to dig yourself even deeper when called-out for even more perplexing reasons.
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Re: 4th Top-4 DMan this yr..

Post by RedWhite&Yzerman »

Hull on being put on Datsyuk's line out of camp his rookie season.

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Re: 4th Top-4 DMan this yr..

Post by RedWhite&Yzerman »

Then..
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FB_IMG_1722737387967.jpg (65.04 KiB) Viewed 274 times
Last edited by RedWhite&Yzerman on Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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