Forecasting the Red Wings

[Pop Zeus]

The worst possible outcome. Y has diverted considerable resources to his UFA rabble of journeymen types, delays NHL development of his picks, and forces his draft well outside the elite which he desperately needs (especially since he has drafted poorly outside the top). Yzerplan=Yzerscam.

Not all that bad. Chiarot is coming around in his play now. But their defensive scheme is not working, and when it does work the Wings can't score goals! The only glaring mistake is the signing of Holl, the salary, term and NTC are as bad as the player. Could he be traded for Tyler Myers strait up? Van probably does not want that contract either.
Yeah, the soft goals let in are at issue also. But early on the Wings were able to outscore their mistakes. When the scoring dries up everything else becomes a bigger problem.

The glaring mistakes, IMO, are Edvinsson, Berggren and Soderblom playing in GR.
Last year it was Perron.
Just 4-5 points in the standings gets us Michkov last season.
Not acquiring Compher, Holl, Sprong this season and sticking with the youth movement (Edvinsson, Berggren, Soderblom), keeps us in the bottom 10 this season.

We could still have

Kostin Larkin Raymond
Debrincat Copp Kane
Fabbri Rasmussen Fischer
Soderblom Veleno Berggren
X X
Walman Seider
Chiarot (Gudas instead of Holl/Petry)
Edvinsson (instead of Gost) Maatta
X

Husso/Lyon

This team is probably more in line with Buffalo/Ottawa after the acquisition of Debrincat and Kane.
But we'd be developing Soderblom, Edvinsson and Berggren.
Plus guys like Johansson and Mazur and Kasper would be one step closer to a callup and important development time.

And what does it cost us?
We're still probably a bit better than last year and still on the upswing. But we're on the upswing while acclimating young players to the league. Which is WAY more beneficial to whatever this team eventually becomes.
And, we'd have a better picks near the top of the draft.

Then again, Yzerman might waste those picks taking Nate Danielson instead of Zach Benson.

[DocBrown]

I'd be more OK with all this if there was evidence of growth among Y's draftees since he took over. Other than Seider, Eddy and RayRay the draft haul has been unproductive. The elite of the drafts are pretty much slam dunks, the others will sort out in accordance with draft acumen. Which Y and Drapes and his team has failed to demonstrate. I expected the production at GR to be far different. So WTF is the problem there? Is it coaching? Hell, Tuomisto looks good whenever I see him. But he won't get a wiff of Detroit. Eddy is second paring right now and he's behind overvalued contracts to journeymen-type D men in Detroit. Is it worth it? All this money to all these mediocre players putting the team in an aimless no-man's land of mid-bottom tier product and unsatisfying draft position. It's all spinach.

[DelHowLich]

The worst possible outcome. Y has diverted considerable resources to his UFA rabble of journeymen types, delays NHL development of his picks, and forces his draft well outside the elite which he desperately needs (especially since he has drafted poorly outside the top). Yzerplan=Yzerscam.

Not all that bad. Chiarot is coming around in his play now. But their defensive scheme is not working, and when it does work the Wings can't score goals! The only glaring mistake is the signing of Holl, the salary, term and NTC are as bad as the player. Could he be traded for Tyler Myers strait up? Van probably does not want that contract either.
Yeah, the soft goals let in are at issue also. But early on the Wings were able to outscore their mistakes. When the scoring dries up everything else becomes a bigger problem.

The glaring mistakes, IMO, are Edvinsson, Berggren and Soderblom playing in GR.
Last year it was Perron.
Just 4-5 points in the standings gets us Michkov last season.
Not acquiring Compher, Holl, Sprong this season and sticking with the youth movement (Edvinsson, Berggren, Soderblom), keeps us in the bottom 10 this season.

We could still have

Kostin Larkin Raymond
Debrincat Copp Kane
Fabbri Rasmussen Fischer
Soderblom Veleno Berggren
X X
Walman Seider
Chiarot (Gudas instead of Holl/Petry)
Edvinsson (instead of Gost) Maatta
X

Husso/Lyon

This team is probably more in line with Buffalo/Ottawa after the acquisition of Debrincat and Kane.
But we'd be developing Soderblom, Edvinsson and Berggren.
Plus guys like Johansson and Mazur and Kasper would be one step closer to a callup and important development time.

And what does it cost us?
We're still probably a bit better than last year and still on the upswing. But we're on the upswing while acclimating young players to the league. Which is WAY more beneficial to whatever this team eventually becomes.
And, we'd have a better picks near the top of the draft.

Then again, Yzerman might waste those picks taking Nate Danielson instead of Zach Benson.

The whole "tank talk for better picks" is getting old and tired and unproductive. Yeah, I did not like Y's draft picks at the time, but most seem to be progressing well. I think the emphasis right now needs to be on reassessing and implementing a better defensive scheme, and if they don't have the right personel to do it, try to acquire them.

[DocBrown]

Who's progressing well besides last year which is too early to tell?

[Pop Zeus]

[quote=DelHowLich post_id=30593 time=1703012324 user_id=448]
[quote="Pop Zeus" post_id=30591 time=1703009439 user_id=64]
[quote=DelHowLich post_id=30589 time=1703007042 user_id=448]
Not all that bad. Chiarot is coming around in his play now. But their defensive scheme is not working, and when it does work the Wings can't score goals! The only glaring mistake is the signing of Holl, the salary, term and NTC are as bad as the player. Could he be traded for Tyler Myers strait up? Van probably does not want that contract either.
Yeah, the soft goals let in are at issue also. But early on the Wings were able to outscore their mistakes. When the scoring dries up everything else becomes a bigger problem.
[/quote]

The glaring mistakes, IMO, are Edvinsson, Berggren and Soderblom playing in GR.
Last year it was Perron.
Just 4-5 points in the standings gets us Michkov last season.
Not acquiring Compher, Holl, Sprong this season and sticking with the youth movement (Edvinsson, Berggren, Soderblom), keeps us in the bottom 10 this season.

We could still have

Kostin Larkin Raymond
Debrincat Copp Kane
Fabbri Rasmussen Fischer
Soderblom Veleno Berggren
X X
Walman Seider
Chiarot (Gudas instead of Holl/Petry)
Edvinsson (instead of Gost) Maatta
X

Husso/Lyon

This team is probably more in line with Buffalo/Ottawa after the acquisition of Debrincat and Kane.
But we'd be developing Soderblom, Edvinsson and Berggren.
Plus guys like Johansson and Mazur and Kasper would be one step closer to a callup and important development time.

And what does it cost us?
We're still probably a bit better than last year and still on the upswing. But we're on the upswing while acclimating young players to the league. Which is WAY more beneficial to whatever this team eventually becomes.
And, we'd have a better picks near the top of the draft.

Then again, Yzerman might waste those picks taking Nate Danielson instead of Zach Benson.
[/quote]

The whole "tank talk for better picks" is getting old and tired and unproductive. Yeah, I did not like Y's draft picks at the time, but most seem to be progressing well. I think the emphasis right now needs to be on reassessing and implementing a better defensive scheme, and if they don't have the right personel to do it, try to acquire them.
[/quote]

How the fuck is that "tank talk?"
It's rebuild talk.
And the longer you bury your prospects for vets, the worse your picks are, the worse your talent develops.

Who thinks defensemen like Edvinsson, Wallnder, Johansson and Viro are well served by having Chiarot, Maatta, Walman and Gost ahead of them in the NHL?

Edvinsson stagnates in GR.
Johansson and Wallinder and Viro play reduced roles, if they play at all.

I'm all for picking up veterans to help give the kids some stability.
But what the fuck?
7 straight years of top 10 picks and no rookies in the lineup?
For what? For Daniel Sprong? For David Perron? For Jeff Petry, Olli Maatta and Justin Holl?

That's not "tank talk."

It''s "we drafted this kids, let's use a couple or we'll be spinning our tires forever" talk.

[Pop Zeus]

The whole "tank talk for better picks" is getting old and tired and unproductive. Yeah, I did not like Y's draft picks at the time, but most seem to be progressing well. I think the emphasis right now needs to be on reassessing and implementing a better defensive scheme, and if they don't have the right personel to do it, try to acquire them.

Top picks from Yzerman drafts.
Danielson - Lower points/game than draft year.
Pellika - Good Progress, at least on the PP.
Augustine - Nice NCAA rookie season
Gibson - Solid progress, but still a questionable pick.
Cleveland - Barely in the lineup.
Kasper - Not much progress here. Probably the worst showing from the top 10 of the draft.
Dylan James - Not having much success at all.
Buchellnikov - Having good D+2 progress.
Edvinsson - Solid progress in his D+3 season. But in terms of pro performance, probably only Tyler Boucher is worse from the top 10.
Cossa - Slow progress, but progress. Only 11 games so far in the AHL.
Buium - Good season in NCAA as a junior.
Raymond - Having a bounce back year.
Wallinder - Hard to say.
Niederbach - Strugglng again.
Hanas - Step backwards.
Seider - Losing powerplay time to Gost, or his stats would be better. His defensive game hasn't been so good this year.
Tuomsito - Played 4 AHL games.
Mastrosimone - Gone
Johansson - Has been a healthy scratch at times.

[dcz28]

The whole "tank talk for better picks" is getting old and tired and unproductive. Yeah, I did not like Y's draft picks at the time, but most seem to be progressing well. I think the emphasis right now needs to be on reassessing and implementing a better defensive scheme, and if they don't have the right personel to do it, try to acquire them.

Top picks from Yzerman drafts.
Danielson - Lower points/game than draft year.
Pellika - Good Progress, at least on the PP.
Augustine - Nice NCAA rookie season
Gibson - Solid progress, but still a questionable pick.
Cleveland - Barely in the lineup.
Kasper - Not much progress here. Probably the worst showing from the top 10 of the draft.
Dylan James - Not having much success at all.
Buchellnikov - Having good D+2 progress.
Edvinsson - Solid progress in his D+3 season. But in terms of pro performance, probably only Tyler Boucher is worse from the top 10.
Cossa - Slow progress, but progress. Only 11 games so far in the AHL.
Buium - Good season in NCAA as a junior.
Raymond - Having a bounce back year.
Wallinder - Hard to say.
Niederbach - Strugglng again.
Hanas - Step backwards.
Seider - Losing powerplay time to Gost, or his stats would be better. His defensive game hasn't been so good this year.
Tuomsito - Played 4 AHL games.
Mastrosimone - Gone
Johansson - Has been a healthy scratch at times.

Yet you complain about some of the guys Yzerman brought in to improve the team saying they are in the way of those prospects. The only guys from GR that could be in the lineup is Edvinsson, Berggren and maybe Soderblom. The rest haven't shown they belong in the NHL at this point.

The only thing i agree with you is that Petry should have never been traded for and i said as much even before the Wings traded for him. Holl was the wrong guy to sign, he's the Rasmussen of defensemen...big but doesn't use it, soft, doesn't do anything well and has a low hockey IQ. They needed to sign Schenn or Gudas to partner up with Ghost and round out the top 4 and add a defensive guy with some physicality. I have no issue with Sprong or Compher and even Debrincat/Kane have been better than i expected although neither Debrincat or Kane are any good defensively.

Get rid of Petry, Holl and Ras and replace them with Edvinsson, Berggren/Soderblom and i would like the team much better. I would also be fine if they replaced them with smarter more physical players in trades too and kept Edvinsson/Berggren/Soderblom for injury call ups instead of always calling up Czarnik first. Czarnik is a smart player but he's 31 years old and has no future with the Wings. He should be kept in the AHL to help that team win.

[Pop Zeus]

The whole "tank talk for better picks" is getting old and tired and unproductive. Yeah, I did not like Y's draft picks at the time, but most seem to be progressing well. I think the emphasis right now needs to be on reassessing and implementing a better defensive scheme, and if they don't have the right personel to do it, try to acquire them.

Top picks from Yzerman drafts.
Danielson - Lower points/game than draft year.
Pellika - Good Progress, at least on the PP.
Augustine - Nice NCAA rookie season
Gibson - Solid progress, but still a questionable pick.
Cleveland - Barely in the lineup.
Kasper - Not much progress here. Probably the worst showing from the top 10 of the draft.
Dylan James - Not having much success at all.
Buchellnikov - Having good D+2 progress.
Edvinsson - Solid progress in his D+3 season. But in terms of pro performance, probably only Tyler Boucher is worse from the top 10.
Cossa - Slow progress, but progress. Only 11 games so far in the AHL.
Buium - Good season in NCAA as a junior.
Raymond - Having a bounce back year.
Wallinder - Hard to say.
Niederbach - Strugglng again.
Hanas - Step backwards.
Seider - Losing powerplay time to Gost, or his stats would be better. His defensive game hasn't been so good this year.
Tuomsito - Played 4 AHL games.
Mastrosimone - Gone
Johansson - Has been a healthy scratch at times.

Yet you complain about some of the guys Yzerman brought in to improve the team saying they are in the way of those prospects. The only guys from GR that could be in the lineup is Edvinsson, Berggren and maybe Soderblom. The rest haven't shown they belong in the NHL at this point.

The only thing i agree with you is that Petry should have never been traded for and i said as much even before the Wings traded for him. Holl was the wrong guy to sign, he's the Rasmussen of defensemen...big but doesn't use it, soft, doesn't do anything well and has a low hockey IQ. They needed to sign Schenn or Gudas to partner up with Ghost and round out the top 4 and add a defensive guy with some physicality. I have no issue with Sprong or Compher and even Debrincat/Kane have been better than i expected although neither Debrincat or Kane are any good defensively.

Get rid of Petry, Holl and Ras and replace them with Edvinsson, Berggren/Soderblom and i would like the team much better. I would also be fine if they replaced them with smarter more physical players in trades too and kept Edvinsson/Berggren/Soderblom for injury call ups instead of always calling up Czarnik first. Czarnik is a smart player but he's 31 years old and has no future with the Wings. He should be kept in the AHL to help that team win.

I always hated Holl. He took Marchenko's NHL job in Toronto. I liked Marchenko. So smart, so solid. Just a little slow.
I'll take Debrincat or Kane.
But Compher for 5 years? Right after 5 years for Copp and 8 years for Larkin?
When you've got Veleno, Kasper and Danielson? Blech.
D'Cat and Kane (just for experience) have some upside and it's hard to argue with the commitment/cost.

Having Berggren/Soderblom in full-time roles this year would makes it much easier to put Danielson or Mazur or Kasper or Lombardi in next year.

At this point, you can pretty much count on losing 2-3 Swedes for good after this year (Berggren/Soderblom/Johansson).

Let players advance in the system, or you clog the system.

I think Edvinsson, barring injury, is the only safe bet to make the team as a rookie next year.

[dcz28]

Top picks from Yzerman drafts.
Danielson - Lower points/game than draft year.
Pellika - Good Progress, at least on the PP.
Augustine - Nice NCAA rookie season
Gibson - Solid progress, but still a questionable pick.
Cleveland - Barely in the lineup.
Kasper - Not much progress here. Probably the worst showing from the top 10 of the draft.
Dylan James - Not having much success at all.
Buchellnikov - Having good D+2 progress.
Edvinsson - Solid progress in his D+3 season. But in terms of pro performance, probably only Tyler Boucher is worse from the top 10.
Cossa - Slow progress, but progress. Only 11 games so far in the AHL.
Buium - Good season in NCAA as a junior.
Raymond - Having a bounce back year.
Wallinder - Hard to say.
Niederbach - Strugglng again.
Hanas - Step backwards.
Seider - Losing powerplay time to Gost, or his stats would be better. His defensive game hasn't been so good this year.
Tuomsito - Played 4 AHL games.
Mastrosimone - Gone
Johansson - Has been a healthy scratch at times.

Yet you complain about some of the guys Yzerman brought in to improve the team saying they are in the way of those prospects. The only guys from GR that could be in the lineup is Edvinsson, Berggren and maybe Soderblom. The rest haven't shown they belong in the NHL at this point.

The only thing i agree with you is that Petry should have never been traded for and i said as much even before the Wings traded for him. Holl was the wrong guy to sign, he's the Rasmussen of defensemen...big but doesn't use it, soft, doesn't do anything well and has a low hockey IQ. They needed to sign Schenn or Gudas to partner up with Ghost and round out the top 4 and add a defensive guy with some physicality. I have no issue with Sprong or Compher and even Debrincat/Kane have been better than i expected although neither Debrincat or Kane are any good defensively.

Get rid of Petry, Holl and Ras and replace them with Edvinsson, Berggren/Soderblom and i would like the team much better. I would also be fine if they replaced them with smarter more physical players in trades too and kept Edvinsson/Berggren/Soderblom for injury call ups instead of always calling up Czarnik first. Czarnik is a smart player but he's 31 years old and has no future with the Wings. He should be kept in the AHL to help that team win.

I always hated Holl. He took Marchenko's NHL job in Toronto. I liked Marchenko. So smart, so solid. Just a little slow.
I'll take Debrincat or Kane.
But Compher for 5 years? Right after 5 years for Copp and 8 years for Larkin?
When you've got Veleno, Kasper and Danielson? Blech.
D'Cat and Kane (just for experience) have some upside and it's hard to argue with the commitment/cost.

Having Berggren/Soderblom in full-time roles this year would makes it much easier to put Danielson or Mazur or Kasper or Lombardi in next year.

At this point, you can pretty much count on losing 2-3 Swedes for good after this year (Berggren/Soderblom/Johansson).

Let players advance in the system, or you clog the system.

I think Edvinsson, barring injury, is the only safe bet to make the team as a rookie next year.

I thought Compher would be another Copp but he looks much much better than Copp so far so i was wrong about him. I'm fine with his signing (even though i wanted Duchene not him) because he is a good two way center and a RHC, something the Wings do not have. Copp is the one that never should have been signed. As soon as one of the center prospects is ready for the NHL, i hope Copp is the first one out the door. He's Helm without the speed or grit.

Wings have 5 UFAs at forward in the summer and i doubt Yzerman will re-sign all of them. Hell if they don't start some winning streaks, a bunch of them could be gone by the deadline. Biggest problem is they only have 1 UFA defenseman (Ghost) and that is one i would be fine with keeping. Need to get rid of Holl, Petry and even Maatta. Maatta was good last season but sucks this season.

As for the prospects, they need to show they belong. None of them really stood out much in pre-season. So far Berggren has gotten better and looks more like he did last season so he should be in the lineup. Edvinsson has played well enough in GR that he should get a shot but the Wings have not had any injuries on defense. I'm sure at some point they will and he will get into the lineup. Johansson has showed enough to also get a look but like Edvinsson, he will need to wait for an injury or for Yzerman to get rid of the crap (Holl, Petry and Maatta).

[Pop Zeus]

Yet you complain about some of the guys Yzerman brought in to improve the team saying they are in the way of those prospects. The only guys from GR that could be in the lineup is Edvinsson, Berggren and maybe Soderblom. The rest haven't shown they belong in the NHL at this point.

The only thing i agree with you is that Petry should have never been traded for and i said as much even before the Wings traded for him. Holl was the wrong guy to sign, he's the Rasmussen of defensemen...big but doesn't use it, soft, doesn't do anything well and has a low hockey IQ. They needed to sign Schenn or Gudas to partner up with Ghost and round out the top 4 and add a defensive guy with some physicality. I have no issue with Sprong or Compher and even Debrincat/Kane have been better than i expected although neither Debrincat or Kane are any good defensively.

Get rid of Petry, Holl and Ras and replace them with Edvinsson, Berggren/Soderblom and i would like the team much better. I would also be fine if they replaced them with smarter more physical players in trades too and kept Edvinsson/Berggren/Soderblom for injury call ups instead of always calling up Czarnik first. Czarnik is a smart player but he's 31 years old and has no future with the Wings. He should be kept in the AHL to help that team win.

I always hated Holl. He took Marchenko's NHL job in Toronto. I liked Marchenko. So smart, so solid. Just a little slow.
I'll take Debrincat or Kane.
But Compher for 5 years? Right after 5 years for Copp and 8 years for Larkin?
When you've got Veleno, Kasper and Danielson? Blech.
D'Cat and Kane (just for experience) have some upside and it's hard to argue with the commitment/cost.

Having Berggren/Soderblom in full-time roles this year would makes it much easier to put Danielson or Mazur or Kasper or Lombardi in next year.

At this point, you can pretty much count on losing 2-3 Swedes for good after this year (Berggren/Soderblom/Johansson).

Let players advance in the system, or you clog the system.

I think Edvinsson, barring injury, is the only safe bet to make the team as a rookie next year.

I thought Compher would be another Copp but he looks much much better than Copp so far so i was wrong about him. I'm fine with his signing (even though i wanted Duchene not him) because he is a good two way center and a RHC, something the Wings do not have. Copp is the one that never should have been signed. As soon as one of the center prospects is ready for the NHL, i hope Copp is the first one out the door. He's Helm without the speed or grit.

Wings have 5 UFAs at forward in the summer and i doubt Yzerman will re-sign all of them. Hell if they don't start some winning streaks, a bunch of them could be gone by the deadline. Biggest problem is they only have 1 UFA defenseman (Ghost) and that is one i would be fine with keeping. Need to get rid of Holl, Petry and even Maatta. Maatta was good last season but sucks this season.

As for the prospects, they need to show they belong. None of them really stood out much in pre-season. So far Berggren has gotten better and looks more like he did last season so he should be in the lineup. Edvinsson has played well enough in GR that he should get a shot but the Wings have not had any injuries on defense. I'm sure at some point they will and he will get into the lineup. Johansson has showed enough to also get a look but like Edvinsson, he will need to wait for an injury or for Yzerman to get rid of the crap (Holl, Petry and Maatta).

Copp was the guy available last year. And we desperately needed a stable C last year.
It was either Copp or Trocheck.
The old "rookies need to show they belong" stuff makes sense when you're a cup contender.
When you're a rebuilding team, and you have fewer rookies in the lineup than the Bruins or Leafs - it sounds really, really silly.

But that's what cup teams have been doing since the Blackhawks.
Using rookies because that's all you have cap room for.
And with really good results.